So what would Sonny say to help refine this process? Or what advice would you offer?

The details - looked at work for 2 home owners that are relator's in CO. Basement finish -- complete until rock hung - referral from a a finisher...

Original portion of email from me-

Hi there Julie and Paul

i know what i would like to say too....

i have one question... do you think you will get the job? if so wave it and say to them you will wave if this time since you are new to working this way. or something like that.

i guess you prequalify enough since your saying you get most jobs. i think if you stand your ground your going to loose this one. if you wave it then it makes it look like they got a deal and are back in your playing field. plus don't forget to double the fee and put it in the bid since they are being jerks about you getting paid for your time.

if they are both "self employeed and have to do a lot of work before they get paid" that is their problem. when i was a consultant (still do it) i never wait for a check. i take retainers and work from that. if the customer didn't like it i moved on. i never worked with out getting paid unless i had a contract with that client... just some insight. it was actually hard for me to start doing work for free(estimates and such) when i switched careers.

BTW: i have made the transition in my company to charge for proposals but free ballpark estimates. this way i can still use servicemagic since free estimate is something i have to do for them. i have not met anyone that has said no to it yet. but around here most electricians and plumbers have a fee to come look at the job so i think some may be used to it so thats why i am not met with problems.

If i was in your shoes i would most likely walk away or stand your ground and demand the fee, but thats just me.

Dave,

This is what I think Sonny would say, Feel free to correct me everyone.

I would say,

"Ball park estimates are free, because they are only a approximation."

"a TRUE COST (call it whatever you like) proposal will be an exact cost, material has to be sourced and priced, Subs have to be given precise job spec's or have an on site evaluation, and there is design time. All of this time adds up to much more then 150.00 in hourly rate alone. Which is credited to the job, when awarded.

How does that sound?

I think their issue is you have already given them a "scope of work" instead of an "estimate", and now you want $150 to give them a more detailed version of what they have already gotten for free. IMO it's all in the wording.

Dennis,

I think you nailed it pretty good.

Along with that, go into the written spiel of how each job is unique and requires a custom built designed set of specifications.

Casually mention that the last jobs design fees were $ 500.00 which the home owner was grateful to pay, due to the precision of the scope of work.

Also, if they sign with you to handle the job right now, that design fee will be waived.

Ed

Tough situation.

I think you may have unintentionally given too much information to them already. Whenever I charge for proposals, I offer a ballpark price for free. I do not go into ANY detail at all. I tell the HOs it is a VERY rough estimate and that I cannot be precise until I spend a lot of time calculating the scope, materials, etc....

The hook is that usually I have already had time to impress them before and during the ballpark stage. They've already made their decision that I am the guy they want. I have very little invested with them, maybe an hour total including the appointment.

I think you came out of the gate too strong this time and showed your cards too fast. It's a little balancing act. The more you do it, the more you figure out the nuances.

I would tell the HOs that this IS part of the work that you do that YOU DO GET PAID FOR. You've already completed the preliminary leg work and to proceed any further along in the process, you need to be compensated. Time is money and they are paying you for your time and expertise. Make this clear. The work of real contractor is NOT LIMITED TO BANGING NAILS. They are paying for PLANNING. PLANNING IS PART OF THE JOB.

And...if they balk on your request for $150, that says a lot. It's getting credited towards the job. Their indecision tells me THAT THEY ARE SHOPPING THE JOB or aren't sure what they are doing. My radar is going off. Get paid now or walk. Sometimes you have to be tough, but it separates the wheat from the chaff.

[quote user="Greg Di" post="9204"]And...if they balk on your request for $150, that says a lot. It's getting credited towards the job. Their indecision tells me THAT THEY ARE SHOPPING THE JOB or aren't sure what they are doing. My radar is going off. Get paid now or walk. Sometimes you have to be tough, but it separates the wheat from the chaff.[/quote]

greg said it perfectly - this is what i was thinking when i wrote my above statement of just walking away.

I agree with Greg. It's a $150 bucks.

However, I try not to bring it across as a bid. It's consulting, planing, and designing. In addition they will receive a formal proposal based on the final decisions.

Dave,

I run into those people all the time. I agree with all the guys above, and I would stand my ground. Design time is no different than physical labor. If they want to work for free.... let them.

I'd rather sit at home, than work for free. If they take your design work and use someone else, you've worked for free.

Keep us posted on how it goes.

[quote user="Greg Di" post="9204"]Tough situation.

I think you may have unintentionally given too much information to them already. Whenever I charge for proposals, I offer a ballpark price for free. I do not go into ANY detail at all. I tell the HOs it is a VERY rough estimate and that I cannot be precise until I spend a lot of time calculating the scope, materials, etc....

The hook is that usually I have already had time to impress them before and during the ballpark stage. They've already made their decision that I am the guy they want. I have very little invested with them, maybe an hour total including the appointment.

I think you came out of the gate too strong this time and showed your cards too fast. It's a little balancing act. The more you do it, the more you figure out the nuances.

I would tell the HOs that this IS part of the work that you do that YOU DO GET PAID FOR. You've already completed the preliminary leg work and to proceed any further along in the process, you need to be compensated. Time is money and they are paying you for your time and expertise. Make this clear. The work of real contractor is NOT LIMITED TO BANGING NAILS. They are paying for PLANNING. PLANNING IS PART OF THE JOB.

And...if they balk on your request for $150, that says a lot. It's getting credited towards the job. Their indecision tells me THAT THEY ARE SHOPPING THE JOB or aren't sure what they are doing. My radar is going off. Get paid now or walk. Sometimes you have to be tough, but it separates the wheat from the chaff.[/quote]

F-YHEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Greg hit it on the nose and got an award for it!!!

Just remember this could have been found out or ironed out earlier with a design/build contract

Like dennis said (very well put btw) Ballparks are free but to move to the next stage a bit of coherance is in order. We usually only take 5% of the ballpark to enter into the design phase.

The wording needs to be re-done and for god's sake no scope until money is in hand

You just entered low-baller heavean for competition.

Before true work and costs are figured and commences you need a contract right?




WRONG you need a dba (design build agreement) and payment for your time.

an estimate/ballpark is one thing OFF the cuff if you will A scope is way beyond menial tasks.

You are on the right track let me know if I can help

Constructive critiscim for all don't take it personally at least that was what Sonny used to say before dropping a bomb on me

forgot


Scope allows competitors to go apples to apples that does not work in your favor esp. if not paid to come up with it.

You just did all the comps homework

Let's get you straight together, You have taken the jump to D/b without really knowing it.

You're on the right track brother

Thanks for the tips and thoughts.

Obviously, trying to get from yesterday (free estimates) to getting paid for our time is a huge hurdle for some. Me included.

Much good information in there and too much to digest all at once. I agree that I gave too much information and the wording (charge for bid / estimate) is wrong. Will change that in the future.

What I originally sent her was basically a list of what would be bid and a few ideas. When I went over there, the usual - "we want this, and this and this" story went on. I tried to email a basic scope to clarify what they were interested in having me do / price. I got too detailed and worded it wrong.

Owell, I will respond that the 'design' parts will be an allowance until the details are narrowed down, as I will not design the project for free. Basically, I should have wrote that 'to bid the project properly, the project needs to be designed and I would be happy to do so for a design fee.'

This job is not too important for me to land and I figured I would experiment a little in learning this transition. Who knows what will transcend and I will give them a fairly specific price and see what happens. I have only spent an hour on this and do not mind estimating - since I am young and have many systems and refinements to make. I think of it still as learning.

Thanks for the thoughts and never think that I would take anything personally regarding running the business. I posted the above here b/c I have more confidence in the community here than elsewhere and appreciate the response and criticism when due - as it was here.

If I knew it all - I'd be rich... :)

I don't write them all the same but, here's one example of how I describe the fee.

Part of an email to a customer (btw, terms were accepted).....

"At this point, to move forward, we should sit down to discuss the above. I suspect it will take a few visits to get things nailed down and I would like to get the plumber and electrician over there at some point so they can estimate cost of there work. With this type of project we will need to do what's called a Construction Cost Evaluation. I will work with you to put together a plan for both kitchens, check your cabinet order to be sure that everything fits, and get together a budget amount for the various projects so that you can go to the bank with confidence that you have everything covered financially before we start. A $1000.00 retainer would be required for us to do this work. When we are awarded the project 50% of this retainer will be deducted from the final payment ($500). We will provide all details of work to be done and floor plan drawings of the kitchens with a schedule of finishes (floors, trim, counter tops)"

Dave,

Here's how I send out my emails with "estimates":

Per our conversation earlier today, I have attached a preliminary project budget for your deck renovation.

As I mentioned to you, this estimate is based on approximate square footage of decking and approximate lineal footage of railings. It's purpose is to give you a general idea of what the project could cost without spending hours counting every board, post and screw that a complex project like yours requires. I tend to be liberal with pricing on these types of estimates, because it is just that, an estimate. I would rather be higher on the first approach than be too low and have the actual proposal price be higher. I don't think that's fair to you and I think you've been there already.

I will be happy to provide you with a detailed proposal that takes every single detail into consideration so I can arrive at an exact price for the project.


My references are attached and I urge you to call them. My goal is to leave everyone a happy customer!

We work on a first come, first serve basis, so the sooner we can get a proposal put together and a contract signed, the sooner we can start.

I look forward to working with you!

Thanks,

Greg


************

Here's my content. Note how it's vaguely specific:

Provide labor and materials to remodel existing decks as follows:

Greg - thanks for posting that. What you sent was not too different than what I sent to the client that spurned this thread. Except I got a little specific on the electrical.

I'll attach the word document that I sent. Thoughts?

I'll be interested in your clients reply. Interesting situation that you are in...

[quote user="dnorthup" post="9514"]Greg - thanks for posting that. What you sent was not too different than what I sent to the client that spurned this thread. Except I got a little specific on the electrical.

I'll attach the word document that I sent. Thoughts?

I'll be interested in your clients reply. Interesting situation that you are in...[/quote]

No problem. I looked at yours and I think you got too specific. I could practically bid that job without seeing it if they handed me your rundown.

I also am not sure if I like the whole lead-in paragraph about not using for other bids. It's not legally binding and people are generally soulless when it comes to shopping around. You know that!

Here's one for a basement job that I got two years ago:

The generalized scope of work to turn your basement into a living area is as follows: